Transcript 0:00 Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 50 of the IoT For All Podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Chacon. 0:05 And before I get into our guest today, I wanted to just give a quick shout-out to all of our listeners and say, uh, thank you very, very much for everything you've kind of done over the last year. 0:15 Uh, we started this podcast about a year ago now, and we hit 50 episodes, which is a pretty cool milestone for us. Um, you know, the, the engagement we've got has been fantastic. 0:25 The guests we've had have been incredible. 0:27 Um, you know, there seems to be a lot of demand for the types of content that we're producing on the podcast, so we look forward to continuing to work hard to, to, to push out these episodes, um, into 2020. 0:39 Um, and I just wanna thank you, you know, at least personally from me and the whole IoT For All team, thank you so much for, for the continued support to help us, you know, get to episode 50. 0:47 Um, and speaking of episode 50, so today's guest is Greg Dial, the Executive Vice President of Product and Market Strategy at JMA Wireless. 0:56 Previously, Greg spent 11 plus years at Verizon within various leadership roles in areas including network planning, device marketing, and product development. 1:04 Um, he has leadership experience across SaaS platforms, 5G, IoT, edge-driven applications, and so forth. Um, and 1:12 to give you a quick little rundown of JMA Wireless itself, they design and build next generation communication systems, um, delivering the technologies that are enabling 4G LTE, 5G, CBRS on networks worldwide. 1:24 Uh, so this is a pretty interesting episode 'cause we talk a lot about CBRS, which is something that we have not covered too much in previous episodes. 1:31 I think we might have done, like, a, an intro to CBRS episode very, very early on last year, but, um, this is an episode where we actually dive a bit deeper into it to kinda give you, the audience, a better understanding of what it actually is. 1:44 Uh, to give you a quick rundown of the episode itself, so after we get through all the intros about JMA Wireless, about Greg himself, um, we talk about CBRS, what exactly it is, how it fits into the current connectivity spectrum within IoT. 1:58 Um, we talk about different use cases, uh, the advantages of CBRS, uh, the disadvantages of CBRS, and the industry's overall basic reaction and, um, I guess need, in a sense, for CBRS. 2:09 So it's a very interesting, uh, conversation. 2:12 If you are unfamiliar with CBRS, it's something that, uh, has been actually used for, for many years but kind of been, been held private for, um, for particular organizations related to the government, and I think you'll understand better what I'm talking about when you, um, listen to the episode. 2:26 So we really hope you enjoy this episode. I had a great time talking to Greg about, uh, CBRS, and it's pretty exciting that this is episode 50. 2:33 So, uh, without further ado, please enjoy this episode with Greg Dial of JMA Wireless. Welcome, Greg, to the IoT For All Show. How's your new year been so far? Great. 2:42 It's, uh, I wish the weather was a little better here in, in New Jersey, where we got- [laughs]... 40, 40 to 50 mile an hour winds and some snow- Uh-oh... 2:49 squalls coming through, so, uh, hopefully you and all those listening have, uh, better luck with the weather. But, uh, no, it's, it's been great. Whereabouts in New Jersey? What's that? Whereabouts in New Jersey? 2:59 Uh, central New Jersey. So, um- Okay... basically 30 miles west of, uh, of New York City. So I've, I've been here for about- Okay... 30 years. Gotcha. Which town is it? I, I'm familiar with New Jersey. 3:08 Uh, Mount Olive Township, which is in Morris County, so for anyone that knows- Yep... New Jersey, uh, you know, basically a- Yeah... stone's throw from Morristown, which is probably the closest- Yep... 3:17 city anyone would have heard of. I know exactly where that is. Um, but great. Yeah, thanks for, for being on the show. 3:24 I, I think the best way to start this episode would be to have you give a quick introduction to yourself. 3:30 Um, just talk a little bit more about your background, your experience, um, and then we'll get into talking about JMA Wireless a little bit more- Sure... about what the company's all about. Sure. Absolutely. 3:39 Well, uh, excited to be here talking to you. Um, so, so a little bit about me. I've been in the industry for about 20, 25 years. Um, uh, grew up in telecom. 3:47 My, my father was in telecom for, for 30 years, so it's, you know, it's always interesting to have discussions- [laughs]... with him on how things have changed. 3:54 Um, uh, but anyway, it's, it's really, um, uh, you know, when I think about the, the pace of the industry over the last number of years, I mean, it's, it's really just, just continuing to just set itself on fire i- in, in a good way. 4:08 So, you know, really a, a tremendous amount of, of, uh, innovation and opportunity ahead. 4:13 But, um, I started my career at the old Lucent Technologies, uh, here in New Jersey, so, um, you know, basically doing 3G equipment, uh, for the old CDMA technology. 4:23 So I was, uh, on the product side and had an international role, so basically, you know, anywhere, uh, in the world, uh, where there was a CDMA license holder, uh, we would go out and, uh, pitch them on a network. 4:35 So, uh, did quite a bit of travel, uh, in my 20s, so anywhere from, uh, India, Africa, China. 4:42 Uh, got to see a good part of the world, uh, and talk to, you know, uh, quite a few carriers, um, you know, that were w- working with, um, the new 3G technology at the time. In that case, it was CDMA EVDO. 4:55 Um, and then, you know, obviously that evolved to LTE and, and now 5G, which is, you know, pretty hard to believe, uh, over the last- Right... 20 years [laughs] here. 5:03 Um, so, uh, from Lucent, I went to, uh, Verizon, uh, Verizon Wireless specifically. Uh, there I had, uh, some of the international pieces as well. 5:12 So, um, Verizon set up, if, if you're m- uh, for those of you that are, uh, were Verizon customers many years ago, um, you know, you found that your phone couldn't go to a lot of the, uh, countries, especially in Europe, because it was on, um, uh, GSM technology. 5:26 Basically, what we did was, um, I was a part of the team that created the first global phone. Um, and that phone- Okay... 5:32 essentially allowed, you know, anyone that was on the Verizon network to, uh, roam internationally, um, you know, to the 200 countries, uh, around the world. 5:41 Uh, put that together, um, uh, did the international job for a, a number of years, and then moved into our product group, um, uh, specifically working on things like push-to-talk and some of the next generation platforms as we launched, uh, LTE in, in 2010. 5:56 Um, most recently on the, on the Verizon side and, and prior to my departure, I was working onUh, the network planning side of the group. 6:02 So the group that did all of the, um, uh, technology innovation, um, you know, all of the, the preparation for field deployment for not only, uh, 4G technology, um, but also, um, uh, up until 2018 when I, when I left at the end of 2018, we were doing a lot of preparation for, uh, 5G and, and particularly for Verizon, their millimeter wave, uh, spectrum deployment, um, you know, which, which they've, uh, coined ultra wideband. 6:28 Um, from there I joined, uh, JMA, uh, about seven months ago, uh, working on a, a variety of things for JMA. So I, I manage their, um, product and market strategy, um, globally. 6:41 Uh, so you know, really what that means is product positioning of all of our, uh, of all of our products. So we have a passive side of the portfolio, connectors, antennas, things of that nature. 6:51 Um, and what we're really, uh, you know, excited about is the active side of the portfolio, uh, which is our XRAM platform, uh, software baseband, uh, and some of the, the various radio technology that I'm, I'm sure we'll get into. 7:02 So, um, really a focus within, within JMA, uh, is some of the software development we're doing on, um, on the radio side of the house. 7:11 Uh, and then obviously that's, um, you know, really put us, uh, you know, head and feet, uh, first into i- into CBRS and some of the private wireless opportunities that are, um, are really starting to emerge in a big way, um, uh, you know, across the US. 7:26 Right. So, um, that brings us to current day. Very cool. No, thanks for that. 7:31 Um, so speaking more about JMA Wireless, can you talk about high level, um, in addition to what you've already mentioned, kinda what the company- Sure... is all about and what role you all play in the industry? 7:41 Yeah, absolutely. So, so it's, it's, uh, a pretty broad role today, uh, it wasn't always. So it, it, it's, um, uh, it's actually a, a 70-year-old company, um, with a, with a pretty, pretty rich and interesting history. 7:52 So, [lip smacks] um, JMA stands for John Meslingua Associates. 7:56 Uh, John Meslingua, um, uh, John, our, our current CEO, his grandfather actually founded the company in the '40s, um, for a, a company called PPC or Production Product Company, um, with a... 8:08 I mean, it's really the American dream story, right? With a single drilling machine- [laughs]... in his, uh, you know, in, in his garage, right? So it's the, the [chuckles] story we all hear about. 8:16 We, we started in a, in a similar fashion. And what, [sniffs] um, uh, what Mr. Me- Meslingua did was, you know, basically create, um, technology around connectors. 8:26 So if you think about high-end connectors that connect, um, uh, y- you know, high output, uh, high broadband cable, um, he did this for, uh, the, the government, um, uh, in World War II, which, which obviously, um, uh, you know, supported, uh, our efforts there, grew the company, um, and, you know, bringing that into, into 2000, um, when the cable industry was really starting to, uh, to explode. 8:50 That, uh, connector business actually was the connectors that, uh, were on the end of the, um, uh, coaxial cable. So we all remember, uh, cable. Uh, many of us have, uh, cable modems in our house today. 9:01 The conne- you know, something like 80% of the connectors, um, uh, you know, that you would find at the end of a coaxial cable actually had the, the, the, uh, PPC logo, which, um... 9:10 If any of you wanna go look at your connectors and see [chuckles] if it's there. [laughs] There's a high probability that it is. 9:15 Um, that part of the business was, uh, sold to a company called Belden in 2012 and, and basically what happened was we spun off that PPC company and created JMA. 9:26 Uh, and then JMA's focus was, uh, not only on connectors, but a specific part of the connector portfolio that was focused on wireless, right? 9:34 So as wireless was, um, continuing to explode in, in the, uh, in, in the early 2010s, um, uh, you know, John put a lot of investment, um, current John Meslingua, our CEO, put a lot of investment into, um, not only connectors, but he also expanded into the antenna side of the portfolio, so really getting into, you know, the overall footprint of, of what you see on cell towers today. 9:56 [lip smacks] Uh, made a variety of acquisitions, um, and then really, you know, put, put the company on a path to software development. And when I say software development, I mean, uh, virtualized RAN. 10:06 So vRAN technology as, as, uh, you know, you and many of the others, uh, out there in the industry call it today, essentially being able to take the, um, RF assets that are out in the field, put them in software format, and have them run on, uh, common gear, right? 10:23 So your kinda common off-the-shelf gear that allows you to mix and match, um, uh, you know, the best components, um, uh, you know, from different vendors in the industry to put together, you know, what we consider a highly flexible, highly elastic network, um, that not only improves the performance of the network, but also allows you to onboard things like applications and edge computing and things like that much faster. 10:46 So we launched, uh, our XRAM platform, which is that software-based, uh, uh, baseband, uh, in the latter stages of 2017. Uh, we went live with our first customer in 2018. 10:57 We have a variety of deployments, uh, in Europe, uh, in a number of stadiums. Um, and, you know, really have, have put a lot of wood behind the arrow there for, um, you know- Mm-hmm... 11:06 for, for our vRAN, uh, uh, you know, portion of the portfolio. Um, we also made some very s- uh, significant investments in 5G technology. 11:15 So millimeter wave, uh, which, um, you know, obviously is something we'll probably talk about, but millimeter wave is, is a, you know, super high tech way of broadcasting, uh, 5G. Super high bandwidth, super low latency. 11:27 Um, uh, and, and basically we, we purchased a company called Phasor, uh, out of Texas at the end of 2018, um, which, which put us on a path to, um, uh, you know, compete, uh, in the, in the millimeter wave segment of the market. 11:42 Um- Right... we're currently working on indoor specific, uh, opportunities with, um, uh, with 5G, with millimeter wave, and of course CBRS, which we'll talk about. 11:52 Um, but essentially, y- you know, if you think about our, our company and our portfolio, we have the, the, the passive elements that I talked about. 11:59 We also have, um, a DAS or, uh, distributed antenna systems that we sell, um, to a lot of the large venues out there- [laughs]... 12:06 that enable, uh, you know, large venues to be, um, uh, you know, able to handle the massive amounts of traffic, uh, you know, that, um, you know, that go through those networks on game day, for example. Right. Exactly. 12:17 Uh, and, and then really now moving into the, the truly active part of the, of the portfolio, um, you know, the radios, the basebands, the edge computing- Mm-hmm... uh, pieces of it. 12:27 And, um, and most recently and, and one of the, you know, one of the pieces that I'm-You know, um, intimately involved with here, uh, is our CUSP portfolio. So CUSP, uh, is our, uh, edge computing division. 12:39 Essentially what it is is it's a, a neutral host platform where we're starting to test and onboard new applications. 12:45 So, you know, just like we saw opportunity on the software side and on the 5G millimeter wave side, we, we saw the industry very quickly moving to edge computing. 12:54 Um, and we needed to take advantage of that with applications that could sit on the edge. 12:58 Um, and I think what you'll find over the next number of years is if things don't sit on the edge, uh, many of the things that, you know, are going to emerge just, just simply won't work if they're broadcasted in a, in a traditional way. 13:10 So our CUSP unit really focuses on, um, you know, moving cloud, uh, computing to the edge in a hybrid cloud format. 13:17 Uh, and then also onboarding applications, um, not just connectivity, but also over-the-top applications that are starting to emerge within specific verticals like retail, manufacturing- Right... 13:29 um, and sports and entertainment. So, uh, in, in a nutshell, we're, we're pretty broad. We, we started with, um- Yeah... 13:35 you know, a pretty narrow view of, um, of what we sold, and, um, again, through, through foresight and investment and acquisition, you know, really moved into, um, a, you know, a, a, you know, passive portfolio to something that's- Sure... 13:50 that looks more like software of software development organization- Right. Right... if, if that makes sense. Definitely. Yeah, no, that's all great. 13:56 I think, um, one area I wanna focus a little of our conversation on is on the CBRS side. I think- Sure... from an educational standpoint, we've written a lot of content around CBRS over time. Okay. 14:06 But we really, we've never had a guest on here to talk more in depth about it who's kind of really work- you know, working with, with that type of technology. 14:11 So I guess at a high level, um, what is CBRS, and kinda how does it fit in the connectivity spectrum? Um, and- Sure... 14:21 I guess probably most comparable to something like Wi-Fi, um, but just kinda talking about where it fits, how it compares, and then, uh, uh, obviously what it is exactly. Absolutely. 14:32 So, so CBRS is, is something that, um, uh, traditionally was, was used by, uh, the Navy. That's the... 14:38 It was a band that they used for, uh, secure communications between things like aircraft carriers and, a- and aircraft. Mm-hmm. 14:45 Um, so it was something that the government owned, but, you know, as, as, uh, the need for, you know, what we call mid-band spectrum, and when I say mid-band spectrum, I mean anything from the two gigahertz range to the six gigahertz range, um, is considered mid-band. 14:57 Anything below two gigahertz, uh, you know, when I mention low band, that's, that's what- Mm-hmm. Right... that's what that is. 15:03 And then anything that's above six gigahertz, like millimeter wave, right, is, is considered, you know, high band. 15:09 Um, so mid-band spectrum, um, is, is super important for, for 5G and, and obviously with, with the 4G technology in which CBRS was launched. But essentially what it is, is it's, it's 150 megahertz of, of spectrum. 15:23 And, you know, just to put that in context, for every 10 megahertz of spectrum in LTE that you have, you can generally broadcast between 75 or 80 megabits per second. 15:33 So if you add in, you know, what the CBRS band and what, you know, what, what, what the in... 15:38 what the, uh, government and, and the industry is calling the innovation band, when you put all of that together, I mean, you're talking about a, a, a bandwidth pipe that can support something like, you know, one to one and a half gigabits per second, which is, which is- Okay... 15:51 pretty fast, um, from an LTE perspective. 15:54 Just, just to put it in perspective with how large that, um, uh, you know, that, that spectrum block is, if you, if you take the average spectrum holdings, and again, each of the carriers is different. 16:05 But if you think of the, the average spectrum holdings from someone like a, a Verizon or an AT&T or, um, uh, you know, Sprint and T-Mobile, 16:12 you know, the, the average spectrum holdings are in the 110 to 160 megahertz range. That's basically what they have licensed to broadcast nationally. Okay. 16:22 So basically what the FCC has done is opened up a band that is equal or greater to the size of what the carriers are broadcasting with today. Um- Okay... which is, which is significant, right? 16:33 And, you know, what I, what I would say about that is, you know, not only is it a significant chunk of bandwidth, but it also really creates some, uh, some new business models. 16:42 And, and those business models are specific around, um, you know, uh, I would call it, um, uh, lightly licensed spectrum. It's not truly- Mm-hmm... unlicensed like a Wi-Fi. Right. Right. 16:53 Uh, and it's not licensed, uh, in terms of what would go through auction. But essentially- Okay... 16:58 you have a lightly licensed spectrum that anyone that has, um, uh, you know, uh, essentially the capital and the technology to deploy a system, um, can broadcast over CBRS. 17:09 Obviously, there's, there's a process to get licenses- Right. Right. Right. Okay... to broadcast and things like that. But really what it's done is it's, it's really opened up the industry to, to private wireless, right? 17:18 So if you were, if you were a, a business or an enterprise or a stadium, uh, you know, whatever it may be, uh, in the past you would have to go to a carrier. A carrier would have, um, a, a broadcast license. 17:29 You would work with that carrier to, um, you know, basically support applications and, you know, bandwidth within the stadium. Now the paradigm shifts a little bit, and certainly carriers are gonna be supporting CBRS. 17:41 Um, uh, you know, and I think they'll be supporting it in, in a big way. But in this case, if, if I'm a stadium owner or if I'm a venue owner, 17:48 I actually have the ability to go out and contract and build, you know, a CBRS network that, you know, that I, the enterprise, own, right? Okay. 17:57 So if you think of, um, you know, a s- a stadium or a venue, um, they have the ability to augment their bandwidth on their own, right? 18:04 And, you know, what's really exciting about CBRS, especially when it's mixed with a software-based platform, um, you know, which obviously is, is, is something that, you know, we feel strongly about, you can slice that spectrum into, into different pathways. 18:18 So if you think about 150 megahertz, think of that as like 15 lanes of highway that are 10 megahertz each. And- Okay... 18:26 like I said before, those 10 megahertz are, you know, can support something like 75 to 80 megabits per second.So i-if you think about the lanes on the highway, you can put different applications in each lane, right? 18:38 So from a, from a stadium perspective, it's exciting because you could, you could start to monetize that spectrum- Mm-hmm... right? You can support your, your back office operations. So just think of a- Mm-hmm... 18:48 you know, a stadium owner. They have- Right... um, security that they have to manage, right? And a lot of the security has things like push-to-talk devices or walkie-talkie devices. 18:57 You could put that on a secure private network on a portion of the spectrum. Uh, if they wanted to support something like a closed circuit video in the stadium- Mm-hmm... 19:07 uh, you know, you could actually have a closed circuit video that served, um, as a value add for whoever's attending, um, uh, you know, the, the, the- Right... 19:15 football game or, or soccer match, whatever it happens to be. Um, you could do things like, um, augmented reality, right? I mean, that's, that's one of the new- Sure... 19:23 things that we're starting to see, some of this mixed reality. 19:26 Uh, saw a really in- this really cool thing, um, uh, at the, at the, not the last Ravens game, which didn't end very well, but the one before that- [laughs]... 19:33 um, you know, where the Ravens were, you know, they had scored the final touchdown, and they actually had, uh, a mixed reality use case where they had anyone could hold up the phone, and they could see a giant, you know, raven, um, flying- Yeah... 19:45 around the bowl of the stadium. Right. Right. I don't know if you saw that or not, but I... 19:48 You know, it's things like that that are, that are, you know, really just, you know, kinda jarring for people [laughs] that haven't seen them- Sure... before. 19:55 Those are the kind of things that, you know, a stadium owner can really put, put a stamp on their brand. 19:59 Um, you know, and the, and the sports and entertainment industry I think is one that, you know, is, is gonna, you know, take advantage of that in, in the early stages. 20:07 Um, you know, we could also talk about, um, uh, you know, industry and manufacturing and, and, and things like that. 20:13 There's a, there's a whole host of, you know, uh, industrial type of applications that could, you know, naturally take advantage of that when you talk about, um, uh, automating things like robots, right? Mm-hmm. 20:23 And telemetry data that goes to drones. Um, you know, anything you can do on broadband, y- you can do with CBRS. 20:31 And really the basis of it, it, it is LTE technology that an enterprise or a business has the ability to deploy either through a carrier, um, or through an independent party. And that independent party- Okay... 20:44 could be an integrator. It could be a third-party operator, somebody like Oingo. Um, or it could be direct with, um, uh, you know, with anyone that has all of the, the resources to do that. 20:54 So, um, you know, again, in a nutshell, it's, it's a [laughs] heck of a lot of bandwidth. It's bandwidth that you can, uh, slice and dice, uh- Yeah... 21:02 and to support different applications and different quality of service. Um, and there's ownership, and it's not only- Mm-hmm... 21:08 ownership of the applications that go on the system, it's, it's, uh, it's ownership of the data as well, right? Okay. 21:14 So as you start to do things like edge computing, as you start to, to, to get data from your fans, as you start to get data from, you know, smart devices or IoT devices, whether they be sensors or smart cameras or whatever it may be, you can really create a secure ecosystem, something that's truly a closed loop, um- Yeah... 21:34 uh, you know, that is, that is owned by whoever is deploying that system. 21:37 So, um, I, I think all of that is, you know, one, a lot of, a lot of those [laughs] things are a paradigm shift from, from the world we've been living in in the last 15 years. Um, but it's... 21:46 You know, if I were a, uh, a, an enterprise, a, you know, a building owner or a stadium owner or a factory owner- Yeah... 21:53 um, I, I'd, I'd get really excited about the things I'd be able to do over the next number of years here. 21:58 So how does that compare then to, to setting up a w- you know, the most common connectivity for something like that is, is Wi-Fi. Sure. When we go to a... Let's say we go to a stadium. 22:07 You can think about it on the stadium owner side and as, um, like, let's say a, a, a, a fan or consumer side. Mm-hmm. 'Cause you go to a stadium, you try to use your phone, and there's s- 80,000 people in the same spot. 22:18 Um, uh, you use LTE. It maybe works, maybe doesn't work, and then you switch over to the stadium's Wi-Fi, and then that usually has no chance of working. Right. 22:27 So w- when, w- can you talk about kind of from a consumer standpoint- Sure... the experience there versus the cons- uh, experience if CBRS was, um, deployed? Yeah, absolutely. So, so the, 22:40 really the base of it is, is it's, it's LTE technology that's being broadcast on a, on a pretty big pipe, right? So- Mm-hmm... if you take the, the, the basics of LTE versus Wi-Fi, there, there are a couple things. 22:53 And, and look, by the way, um, this is [laughs] in no way saying that there's, um, uh, you know, major miscomings w- with- Sure... with, with Wi-Fi. Uh, I do believe this technology will coexist. 23:04 I think Wi-Fi is absolutely the common denominator in a lot of these scenarios- Sure. Absolutely... and I, and I, and I think that'll continue. So, um, when I think of LTE vers- versus Wi-Fi, a, a couple of things. 23:15 I think, um, uh, LTE in general, um, the technology is, is hyper secure. I mean, it's basically what, you know, we've been using here over the last number of years. 23:25 It's a, you know, highly standardized, um, uh, you know, technology where they've done a tremendous amount of security testing and things like that. So I mean, there, there is this, you know... 23:35 I don't wanna say it's bulletproof. Anytime you say it's bulletproof, you're, [laughs] you're just asking to get hacked. But in, in this case, I think that the, the security angle is something that's significant. 23:44 Wi-Fi certainly has, um, uh, y- you know, encryption, and it has, uh, you know, the ability obviously to, um, uh, you know, to put passwords and things like that on there. But- Right. Right... 23:55 if you think about, if you think about LTE technology, there's a, there's a two-way handshake, right? 23:59 There's a, there, the device, um, authenticates itself with the network, and the network authenticates itself with the device, right, through, through SIM cards and, you know, a, a very robust set of authentication technology. 24:11 Wi-Fi is, is, is a little bit more basic and, you know, basic for a reason, right? It was, it was put out there for, you know, for ease of use and u- and ubiquitous use. So security is one of them. 24:21 Um, I'd also say management of the spectrum. 24:24 So if you think about, um, LTE is, is made for managing channels and a lot of people on the system, so there is a more elegant management of the different channels, um, uh, you know, within, uh, LTE as opposed to Wi-Fi, which, you know, think of Wi-Fi as like a large pipe where everybody's vying for- Yeah, exactly... 24:42 um, you know, a, a smaller number of channels. Right. 24:45 LTE actually has the ability to more elegantly manage the channels, moving devices on and off of-The network in, in, in a, in a more, you know, streamlined or, or, or elegant way, um, it just makes the, the, the technology a little bit more efficient. 25:00 Um, and then the third piece is it's, it's able to be manipulated. And when I say manipulated, it's able to be managed in a positive way to be able to slice the spectrum, right? 25:10 So f- with, um, you know, with Wi-Fi, you can set up things like, um, virtual LANs and things like that, but with, um, with LTE, you can do things like quality of service. Okay. 25:19 You can have your premium, your premium customers given, um, eh, you know, think of it as like an HOV lane, you know, with, with an LTE, and you can monetize that. So it's, it's- Gotcha... 25:29 it's a little bit, it's a little bit more management of the pipe itself as opposed to just getting on, you know, a, a large on-ramp. Um, you know, think of it as when I s- th- the analogy of lanes on a highway. Mm-hmm. 25:42 You know, the management of those lanes is, uh, you know, is, is a little bit more defined and detailed and, you know, when I think of Wi-Fi, I certainly think of a large road, right? Yeah. 25:51 But the management of those lanes and the management of what goes in those lanes is, is not as curated as what you would get on an LTE experience. So- Okay... 25:59 um, again, I, you know, Wi-Fi is absolutely gonna, gonna be here for, you know- Yeah, sure... uh, many, many years. Wi-Fi 6 is, is, is an exciting technology that, you know, that is out there. 26:10 But, um, you know, when you, when you get down to the management, the, the secure element of it, and the integration with things like edge computing, um, and then also, I mean, I forgot to mention it, but I mean, since you're dealing with, uh, CBRS being an LTE technology, and naturally LTE or 5G technology being around a building or a venue or wherever it may be, 26:32 the mobility aspect is, is o- obviously defined. Sure. Right? 26:35 So the ability to move on and off of, um, a private CBRS network to a, uh, public, um, uh, w- you know, uh, wireless network is something that, you know, the industry's been doing for, you know, 20 years or more. Right. 26:50 Right. So th- the, the mobility aspect is something that's more defined as well. But, um- Very cool... uh, tho- those are the, those are the high level things that I would, I would point out. Yeah. That's great. 26:58 Um, so are, are all of our mobile devi- or not mobile, m- I guess our cell phones for instance, are they compatible with CBRS? I read somewhere that like the iPhone 11 is- Yes... compatible, but maybe some... 27:12 Does that mean that other phones from like, you know, that we may be using like, uh, the X or just in general may not be, uh, compatible with CBRS or? Yeah, it's, it's, it's emerging. Okay. 27:22 I mean, just, just like any, any band or any technology, so, you know, similar to, you know, if you, if you remember when we launched, um, uh, you know, when the, when the country launched in, in various stages, LTE. 27:33 Yeah. You know, it started with data dev- data devices, right? 27:36 And, you know, not many of the smartphones had it, and then there was a cycle obviously where, where smartphones, you know, uh, obviously got LTE integrated in a big way. Right. It's similar here. 27:46 Um, it's not, it's not as, as much as a, a, a forklift upgrade to put, you know, it's not a brand-new technology. It's LTE, and it's really just putting in a specific band or a specific radio- Okay... 27:57 in the device to support it. But to answer your question directly, um, there are a number of phones and, and they're the, you know, really the flagship phones that drive a lot of the volume. 28:06 So, so you're, you're right to point out that the iPhone 11, um, is one. Um, the latest Galaxy family- Yeah... of, uh, of smartphones, the Samsung devices, they, they support it as well. 28:17 Um, believe, uh, there's, there's a, a number of, of other devices. Um, uh, LG comes to mind. Uh, quite a few data devices, and we talk about IoT. You know, everybody [laughs] goes to smartphones first. 28:29 Um, you know, but, but, you know, the, the ubiquity of, of kind of the IoT modules- Mm-hmm... is, is really there. 28:35 I mean, there's a number of, um, you know, number of manufacturers that have, have started to put them out in- Okay... in large volume. 28:42 Um, the, the Pixel devices as well, I think the Pixel 3 was the first Android device- Mm-hmm... to have it, and then that's carried over, uh, into the Pixel 4. So it will be an upgrade cycle, right? Sure. Makes sense. 28:53 For, for, uh, smartphone users to get onto CBRS. 28:57 I think there'll be, um, especially for enterprises that are, you know, purchasing smartphones on behalf of their business, I think there's gonna be a vested interest to get them upgraded to, to some of those phones as these networks get deployed. 29:11 Um, you know, but, but again, it, it isn't just about smartphones. It's about, you know, any type of data device that has the ability to plug in a USB modem, 29:21 there's enough of those out there, um, you know, that support the broad, um, uh, bandwidth, uh, of the full CBRS band to take advantage of this. 29:31 So, you know, if you have a robot on a, on a manufacturing floor, instead of plugging in an Ethernet cable, you can now plug in, um, a, a CBRS module. Okay. Um, same thing for a drone, same thing for a smart car. 29:44 Um, but I think we'll see the, you know, the upgrade cycle on the, on smartphones has slowed obviously, um, you know, for a variety of, of reasons. 29:52 But I think over the next number of years it's gonna be, um, you know, pretty much in- Right. Right... you know, standardized in all of the new devices coming out. 29:58 Is that something that, um, from a usability standpoint or just kinda how it works standpoint for a consumer with their phone, would that be something they easily just connect to if they, you know, go into a stadium and there's a CBRS network set up, like similar how you do to a Wi-Fi network or how does that work? 30:13 Yeah, I think so. 30:14 So the, so there, there's obviously a, a connection manager in the phone, um, that users, depending on, on the model, will have the ability to say, "Hey look, if you see a, a CBRS network available- Mm-hmm... 30:25 just like you see Wi-Fi, you can set the priority- Okay... in which you, you connect to those. Gotcha. 30:29 Um, th- there's gonna be some really interesting things with, with some of these private wireless systems, 'cause if you think of the public wire- wireless systems or the, or the carrier wireless systems, they basically choose all of their, um, you know, roaming and types of connections for the user. 30:44 Mm-hmm. In this case, if you have a private system, let's just say in a stadium or, or if you're an employee- Right... in a, in a manufacturing facilityAs, so basically what you could do is do it in two... 30:55 You can, you can really get on the system in two ways. Um, uh, the iPhone, for example, has a second SIM card slot. Mm-hmm. 31:01 So you can actually put in a second SIM card that when the device actually goes into that, um, uh, geo-fenced area, right? 31:09 So you, you enter the factory and the phone can see the CBRS system, it'll automatically jump- Wow, okay... onto that system. So it would be autom- it would be automatic. Okay. 31:17 Um, it, it, it is a, what we call a different PLMN or a, a, a different network ID. 31:23 So the network ID is either loaded in a SIM card that would go in the phone, or, um, it's logic that's loaded into either a carrier SIM card if they wanna do something like roaming. Okay. Right? 31:34 So just like any other LTE network, just like, um, you know, uh, uh, Verizon would, would roam onto an AT&T or an AT&T would roam onto a T-Mobile depending on, on where they were and what the coverage levels were. 31:47 In this case, there's an opportunity for, um, you know, for carriers, and when I say carriers, I use that as a broad term. 31:53 Not only carriers, but, um, also some of the MVNOs out there, some of the cable operators, um, you know, that have launched wireless service. They'll have the ability to connect into these private wireless systems. 32:03 But it, but that be- that becomes a business arrangement, right? It becomes an arrangement between the owner of the network and the carrier, um, or customer set that wants to roam within that. 32:13 In some cases, they'll be your own, um, employees. Mm-hmm. Right? So obviously you, you, you wanna prefer that network. 32:20 But in the case of the carriers, um, you know, it'll be interesting to see how this evolves, um, because these, these private networks will be not as broad obviously as the carrier-based networks. Right. 32:31 But, um, you know, I, I fully believe that the performance on these CBRS networks and the features and applications on these CBRS networks are gonna be so good- Mm-hmm... 32:41 that, um, you know, there's gonna be a, a, a, a clamoring to be able to use these things when you get into a stadium. Right. 32:47 So instead of going into a stadium, and I, I use stadium 'cause that's kind of the, the, the common example a lot of people use. 32:54 Instead of going into a stadium and just saying, "Well, I c- I can't connect to my mobile device, um, so let me go try and try Wi-Fi," I actually think the, the drive to connect to the private wireless system is because you're gonna get things that you're not gonna be able to get on other systems. 33:09 Right. Maybe you're, mayb- maybe you'll have special offers from the stadium for concessions and, again, I'm, you know, these are, these are high level things that we've talked about. 33:16 Um, maybe that CBRS network is plugged into a private camera system where you can choose the angles in which you view the s- the, the field. Okay. Right? So think of it as like a screen within, within your seat, right? 33:29 Um, so if I had 33:31 to take hockey for example, you know, if I, if I just, if my favorite player was the goalie, right, um, you know, for the Devils, uh, you could have a camera that's just, you know, pointed at the goalie for the entire, um, you know, for the entire, you know, 60 minutes and essentially you'd be able to follow that, that player, um, uh, you know, from your seat. 33:50 You could certainly watch the game and get the full game experience, but if you really wanted to f- wanted to follow one player, whether it be hockey- Right... or soccer or whatever it may be. I gotcha. 33:57 Um, you know, that premium experience could be, could be managed through the, the bandwidth- Okay... and the management of this CBRS private wireless system at the stadium, at the stadium's discretion. Yeah. Right? 34:09 That, that's really where this comes in is the, it's the choice of applications and the value-added service to make that experience better. Yes. Well, speaking of the Devils, I think the Capitals play the Devils tonight. 34:19 Very unrelated to our conversation, but you know. [laughs] There you go. [laughs] Um, so there was some... So I was reading a bunch about CBRS before we, we got on today, and there's four kind of- Mm-hmm... 34:29 advantages that I pulled from a number of different sources, and we've spoken about many of them already. But I just wanted to kinda summarize them up for our listeners- Yeah... and have you tag on to anything important. 34:36 Sure. 34:37 So the first one is the reduced spectrum bandwidth crunch, kinda the fact that there's, um, a number of wireless devices out there, the amount of data being transmitted and received by the devices is continually growing, and there's only a finite number of available wireless frequencies on the radio spectrum, and those frequencies are being basically eaten up, um, very quickly. 34:55 And then on the other side you have Wi-Fi, which is g- can get very, um, congested, and due to kinda the high noise of Wi-Fi, especially in urban areas, Wi-Fi performance can be limited in many ways. Mm-hmm. 35:05 So on the CBRS side, this helps, uh, it, it is this whole reducing the bandwidth crunch, um, 35:13 is b- well, is able to do that by allocating a new band of frequencies and bas- and like you said, it kinda creates more lanes of traffic over the airwaves for wireless devices. Mm-hmm. So that's kind of one. Absolutely. 35:26 So the second one has to do with the, um, the 35:31 3.5 gigahertz band being open to anyone, so rather than just selling off, uh, new spectrum to mobile operators, the FCC will make CBRS commercially available to pretty much anyone. 35:41 So this means that non-traditional mobile operators such as Google and other cable companies can, um, bring products to market that can use broadband. Um- Yes. Yeah, the, the only, the only thing I'd- Sure... 35:54 the only thing I'd tag onto that is, is there's a nuance within, within the CBRS band. So if you take that 150 megahertz, there's, there's really two segments of it. Technically there's three. 36:04 You know, like if, if the Navy rolls into town, then they actually black out some of those channels- Yeah, that's, that's the spectrum that they're in, right?... which is their right to do. Um, absolutely. 36:12 So, so the, the, the other nuance to this is there's, um, you know, two, two partitions of the spectrum. One is called, uh, GAA, which is, you know, generally available access. Okay. 36:23 And then, um, uh, that's 80 megahertz of the spectrum. And then there's what they call PAL or priority access licenses, which is 70% of the spectrum. 36:32 So, so today we're in a pre, pre-PAL environment, which essentially means the 150 megahertz, um, is open to anybody. The FCC will be auctioning, um, PAL licenses- Mm-hmm... 36:44 which are, you know, preferred access licenses- Right... to, um, in a, in a traditional license, uh, model. Uh, that's gonna happen, uh, the mid part of this year. Okay. 36:53 So, um, those PAL licenses could be purchased, again, open auction. Yep. 36:58 Um, but, you know, we fully expect that, you know, a lot of the, the, the traditional parties will take part in-Those PAL auctions, um, I have no idea at what level or, or who's gonna compete for those, but, you know, obviously spectrum is spectrum and it's, it's, uh, it's incredibly important, especially in the mid band. 37:15 Um, but the point, point is is that even in a, a case where the 70 megahertz of PAL has been auctioned off in an area- Mm... you still have 80 megahertz- Right... of generally available access- Right, right... 37:26 which is a tremendous amount of bandwidth. So that's an important nuance when people- Definitely... hear things like PAL and NGAA. It's, it's a, it's the same band. Okay. It's just a different type of operation. 37:36 Yeah, regarding the shared spectrum side of this whole thing, I, there was... 37:39 I forget where I saw it, but there was a really good kind of pyramid graphic that explained how, you know, like the Navy and the DOD have the top of it and then there's this couple other, or two other segments like you're talking about, the generally available, and then there's going to be the license, uh, the, uh, auction side of it. 37:54 So I'll have to find it and, and maybe try to link it in, in our, um, description for this episode 'cause I thought it was pretty good and helpful- Sure... in explaining it. 38:02 Um, so getting back- Yeah, that's- Getting back to the advantages, there's two other ones I wanted to bring up. One had to do with from a coverage area or a signal strength area, there's, it's better indoor and outdoor. 38:11 It provides better indoor/outdoor cellular signals. So, 38:15 um, having a private LTE network on a CBRS band could, uh, work in conjunction with or in r- in place of a Wi-Fi network, um, and help alleviate any coverage gaps, uh, whether it's at a facility, whether it's at a stadium, whether it's, you know, in a, a, you know, you name it. 38:34 You could pi- pick any kind of localized area like an airport, a hotel, hospitals, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so that was something I think is worth mentioning as well. Yeah. 38:43 Yeah, and yeah, and just a c- a couple of points on that. Absolutely right. I mean, I, I think s- you know, the higher the frequency, the, the, the more clustered the, you know, the radios need to be. 38:53 So, you know, Wi-Fi generally is, is designed around five gigahertz or, or lower than that at, at three and a half gigahertz. Um, but a lot of it is the, the power in which you're broadcasting- Okay... 39:05 is, is a little bit higher. So the, the thing, if you think of a traditional Wi-Fi access point, um, you know, they're p- generally pretty low powered. Mm-hmm. 39:12 So you're, you're generally putting a, a Wi-Fi unit every, you know, three, four, 500 feet in order to get the right coverage and capacity. Okay. 39:20 With some of the industrial grade radios, certainly, you know, the ones that, that we're working on at JMA, you know, these, these, um, radios and antennas can be, you know, placed much further apart, right? 39:30 So, so the ability to actually deploy the systems, um, gets a little bit easier- Okay... 39:35 'cause, you know, our, uh, a radio, um, on, on the CBRS side, depending on, you know, the, the, the power that it emits could cover something up to, you know, 10 to 20,000 square feet as opposed to a 5,000 square foot that kind of the average Wi-Fi point is. 39:49 Gotcha. So again, not saying it's better or worse. Right. It's, it's just, um, it, it's just a little bit different- Yeah... in terms of the power that it's using in the traditional, in the traditional, um, LTE band. 39:59 Yeah. 39:59 And, and just when you think of, you know, when you mentioned it's not better or worse, there's, there's so many different use cases and different u- like scenarios, uh, for IoT, and that's why there's so many different kinds of connecti- con- connectivity. 40:13 Even if they're kind of just slightly different, there's reason for that. 40:16 And I think, you know, whether it's really into price, whether it's relating directly to the use case, the coverage, the kind of data you're transmitting, there, there's u- usually a right connectivity technology out there for the application. 40:28 And I think what we're learning through a lot of these conversations is, um, is, is exact- exactly that, and kind of learning about these use cases so that people out there who are interested in building IoT solutions or, um, you know, deploying IoT solutions, they, they understand that it's not just something that they're limited to, you know, the high cost of potentially like cellular connectivity. 40:51 Like, there are other alternatives that we're learning like, you know, all LPWAN technologies. Sure. There's, uh, CBRS, you know- Yeah. Yeah... Wi-Fi, Blu- BLE. 40:59 Just, you know, the, the list goes on and on, and I think, you know, you, this, today's really helping kind of introduce a new one that maybe people haven't heard too much about on the podcast, um- Yeah... 41:09 to realize that the breadth of connectivity technologies is, is, is very important to the success of the IoT industry as a whole. Yeah. And I, and I think you, you hit it right on. It's all about application. 41:21 I mean, look, uh, CBRS is, is, is an, will be an augmentation for carriers, so they'll be able to aggregate their current spectrum and get higher speeds and higher capability if they have CBRS- Right... 41:32 operating on a, on a, a, a, along with license bands. 41:36 Um, uh, you know, a good example is, and, and these are kind of the two extreme examples, you know, if I'm, uh, you know, in a, in a hotspot area and I just wanna, you know, watch a video or if I just wanna in a, you know, download a, y- you know, a, a book or something like that- Sure... 41:52 that, that I'm gonna, uh, view later, Wi-Fi is, is fine, right? I mean, it's, it's not, um, y- you know, latency sensitive. It's, it's, those things aren't, you know, tremendously bandwidth sensitive. 42:03 Um, but if you take the, the other end of the spectrum, if I'm in a, you know, a factory, right, an automated factory, um, uh, you know, Wi-Fi isn't going to be- Mm... the, the technology that would power- Exactly... 42:14 an au- a, you know, an autonomous robot or a drone because as good as that Wi-Fi system can be, the technology is such that there's a lot of, as you pointed out, right, the signal-to-noise ratio is, is very high. 42:27 It's, um, really hard to guarantee- Yeah... performance. 42:30 So it's really the, the kind of the cross-section of the need to guarantee that performance, uh, based upon the application, and it could be a robot or it could be, um, a, you know, an augmented reality game. Yeah. 42:43 Right? Um, [laughs] trust me, if you, if you have a, a, a, you know, augmented reality, uh, goggles on and you're not getting 60 frames per second, you're gonna, you're gonna get sick [laughs] really fast. 42:54 [laughs] So you wanna make sure you have a, a solid connection there, um, a- again, just to take it to an extreme. But yeah, you're right. It's the- Yeah... the right tool for the right job. 43:01 Yeah, it's funny you mention about the getting sick because, uh, I was watching, I think it was two seasons ago on, um, Silicon Valley, they wereTalking kind of about that, they, they're potentially selling their- Mm-hmm... 43:11 technology into a VR company, and everybody kept throwing up, and then they were able to kind of solve the problem, or the creator of the VR company was able to solve the problem- [laughs]... 43:19 on like why, you know, you, you don't throw up from motion sick. That's right. So that just, I don't know, spurred my memory for whatever reason. Right. 43:24 Well, those, those guys, those guys at, those guys at Pied Piper know what they're doing. Yeah, yeah. So I, I'm, I'm an avid watcher of Silicon Valley. [laughs] Yeah, I know. It's disappointing that the season... 43:33 that the series is over, but, um, I don't know, it ended I guess- Yes... in a bittersweet way. I don't know if I was happy with the ending, but, you know, it was a good show overall. [laughs] So anyways, um- A good... 43:42 W- I find with good, with good shows, it's very rare to find people that are happy with the ending. Yeah. So that's, to me, that's the definition- Yeah... of a good show, right? That's, that's true. 43:49 From New Jersey, I think of The Sopranos. Fair. The Sopranos, but that's a whole nother podcast on, on its own. [laughs] Yeah. We'll have a spinoff podcast just about our, our thoughts on the ending of show series. 43:59 Perfect. [laughs] Um, so you know, we talked a lot about the advan- some of the advantages of CBRS. 44:04 Now on the disadvantages side, kind of what are your thoughts, I guess, it might not be necessarily disadvantages of CBRS, but maybe use cases or applications of the technol- of, of, yeah, that, that exist out in the market that CBRS may not be best suited for, and kinda more of a generalized, in a generalized sense. 44:20 Yeah. What are your thoughts there? Yeah. Yeah. I, I, you know, I wouldn't use the term disadvantage. I mean, it is something that does need to be built. Yeah. Right? 44:28 I mean, it is something that, you know, Wi-Fi is, you know, here's a broadband connection, connect in, you know, an access point, and you're off and running, right? So the, uh... 44:37 It really, it really depends on, again, very similar to the application. If you're in a, you know, a, a- an area of low traffic- Mm-hmm... right? 44:45 And, you know, a lot of times 4G and, you know, obviously the, the emerging, uh, 5G bands are gonna be good enough to support that. So i- it does cost money to deploy a CBRS system to get it up and running. 44:58 Um, you are managing technically a different network- Mm-hmm... and there are some costs associated with that. Right. 45:03 And, you know, I'd, I'd argue that those costs are, have come down, uh, significantly from the days [laughs] of when LTE was launched. Um, but I, I really do think that you, you, you, you... 45:13 The early adopters are gonna be the ones that really n- desperately need, um, uh, one of three things: ownership of the system, right? Where they, they really need control for a variety of reasons. 45:27 They really need the bandwidth, right? In a lot of these high traffic areas, whether it be indoors, which I think we'll see a lot of these deployments, or, or in some cases outdoors. 45:35 Um, a- and, and then if they wanna support certain applications, right? So the, the, the guaranteed quality of service. 45:42 If you don't need those things, if you're, if you have, you know, general spikes in traffic and, you know, hey, there's really no interest in owning the data, and, you know, the, the current bands, um, whether they be LTE or Wi-Fi, um, you know, okay, maybe there's peaks and valleys of how you're using that, but there's really no need to, you know, to, to really put a, um, a major augmentation on it. 46:04 I mean, to me, I... Again, it wouldn't be a disadvantage, it would just be there have to be justifiers in order for a business, a, you know, a municipality, um, a, you know, or a carrier to really put this in place. 46:15 So I think it really just depends on... It's a, it's another tool for the job. But as you, as you pointed out, there's, you know, there's, there's, uh, you know... To me, there's three constants in the world. 46:25 There's, you know, death, taxes, and the growth of broadband. [laughs] So, you know, as broadband continues to grow- Mm-hmm... 46:32 you know, more and more of that spectrum's gonna get eaten up and the technology's gonna continue to evolve. But, you know, at some point you're gonna hit a wall with your, you know, your 4G bands. 46:41 Um, y- you know, some of these emerging 5G bands are super exciting. Um, you know, but the, the, the ability to augment and to, you know, augment- Mm-hmm... 46:50 um, at the pace of what an enterprise wants to augment, not necessarily at the pace of what a carrier wants to augment, I think makes this really interesting. 46:57 So again, it's that ownership, excuse me, ownership factor that I think is important. Yeah, I definitely agree. 47:03 Um, so as we wrap up here, I wanted to ask you just a kind of more generalized question about the industry relating to CBRS. So, um, we've talked about just some different deployments. 47:13 We've talked about different use cases, um, kind of just to get a sense of how CBRS could be used. So what is the overall reaction of the industry and the appetite for this type of technology? 47:25 You know, if you were to ask me this six months ago, I, you know, I would've said, "Yeah, it's, it's still early days. It's, you know, um, you know, a little bit of, a little bit of a science experiment." 47:35 But, um, you know, and I think when I look back, the, you know, kinda the, the, the turning point in my mind was at the Mobile World Congress LA show- Mm-hmm... 47:44 um, where, you know, I, I just, I think a lot of people that were there sensed kinda this market forming around CBRS. 47:50 It was, you know, it was just on the heels of, um, the government announcing that, you know, CBRS was open for, you know, their, their, um, uh, you know, initial rounds of, of, of spectrum offering and some of the initial deployment rounds. 48:04 Um, eh, you know, the iPhone announced support of it. Uh, you know, we, we had some demos at least that we were doing that, you know, I was really, y- you know, uh, really engaged with the interest of, you know- Yeah... 48:15 a lot of the, a lot of the companies. And, eh, you know, it's traditionally at, at these communication shows, you know, you would, you would see, um, you know, the tr- the traditional players, right? Mm-hmm. 48:26 A lot of the traditional application players. But I mean, the, y- you know, we really, there really was a, a, a high tech presence there. 48:32 There was really, you know, and, and I won't name names, but I mean, if you think of your, you know, your, your, your really high-end, uh, technology brands, um, the interest in CBRS and what they could do with that, not only within their own networks, but also as an augmentation to what- Mm-hmm... 48:48 their customers use, um, really, really hit a, a crescendo at that, um, at that show. 48:54 So I think the industry is really, you know, I, I think it's going to be, um, a massive, um, uh, opportunity for enterprises that, again, are, are getting educated, and podcasts like this certainly will help. 49:08 Um, but we're still in a bit of a teaching mode. You know, what is it, you know, or, or more importantly- Right... what is it, what is it not, right? 49:15 How does it compare to Wi-Fi?You know, what are the, you know, what, what are the, the economics around it? How, how costly- Sure... is it to deploy something like this? How quickly- Yeah... 49:23 are we gonna see smartphones on it? Um, so I, I think you're... Yeah, I think we're, we are certainly within, you know- Yeah... 49:31 the early stages, kind of that first, you know, kind of 10, 10 to 15% of, of, of true interest. But I think over the next, you know- Right... 18 to 24 months, you're gonna start to see- Mm-hmm... 49:42 a w- a wide, wide, um, range of deployments and usage of this technology in, um, a wide variety of- Good... of, of verticals, um, as people see... You get, you get a chance to see what the- Yeah... 49:57 you know, what ownership means- Right... when you own a wireless network. Um, and the fact, and the fact that these networks can now be managed, um- Sure... you know, by an IT group, right? 50:07 I mean, the, the, the tools and the dashboards and things like that, I mean, again, you're not- Right... managing a national network, right? Mm-hmm. 50:14 You don't need a national NOC, right, a network operations center, because you don't have, you know, 60,000 cell towers. 50:21 You know, you're, you're, you're dealing with something that is a finite, um, you know, private network that is giving you the value of what LTE and something high broadband is, but it doesn't have the complexity, right? 50:33 'Cause you're, you're really doing it within, um, you know, a, a, a, a small, a smaller space or a set of parameters. 50:39 So I really think the adoption is gonna, gonna take off when the CIOs and, you know, the IT organiz- organizations see, look, the, the cost to deploy this- Mm... is not astronomical. Right. 50:53 Um, it's actually pretty darn efficient. Um, you know, and I, and I'd say kind of approaching Wi-Fi costs over time, and the management of it, right? 51:00 I mean, it's, it's not a, a, a, you know, a PhD in, in telecommunications in order to manage this. And, you know, it's, it's on us as the vendors in the industry to put the tools together that allow, uh- Right... 51:12 IT organizations to be able to manage these things. So I think when those things come together- Sure... 51:17 more devices, um, a couple of catalyst deployments that, that people see, and it's just like, "Oh, yeah, well, that's how I can use it." I still think there's a lot of, um... 51:27 You know, we're still in a heavy learning mode, but, um, I'll tell you, this, the... You know, when we come back three years from now, um, there's, there's- Yeah... gonna be thousands of these networks out there. 51:37 I, I truly believe that. Yeah. 51:39 I think once you get into the consumer space a little bit more and, you know, cell phones are connecting to CBRS networks and are seeing the benefits of it, I think more people will just start to take notice just by the nature of that. 51:49 You know, if I go to a sporting event, connect to that network, and can actually send videos and pictures of me at the game, um, when usually I can't upload anything until I go home, or same with like going to a concert. 51:59 Yeah. You know, once I can start doing that, I think you just start to put the, you know, the acronym CBRS in people's heads, and they're like... 52:05 And this is something that they hopefully have a fond experience with, and then they start to understand the potential of it, um, which then carries over into the, you know, business enterprise kind of space. Yep. 52:16 Yeah, I think- So- My guess is consumers aren't gonna, aren't gonna know the acronym CBRS. Maybe they will. Um, but I, I think they're gonna understand private networks and know that- For sure... 52:25 "Hey, when I go to this venue, I gotta look for the, the, just like I look for a Wi-Fi- Yeah... hotspot, I gotta look for the, this venue's private wireless network-" Right "... 52:34 because of all the things that I, that I get with it." Absolutely. 52:37 Um, the, one other thing that I'd, I'd leave you with is, you know, I think the, the, these private networks are really the perfect pairing for edge computing, and, and again, edge computing [laughs] is a whole other, you know, podcast in and of itself. 52:50 But, I mean, part of the delivery of these applications at the edge, um, you know, the radio side of it and being able to broadcast it and, and being able to carve up these lanes as we talked about is important. 53:03 But being able to pair that with an owned, um, you know, set of applications or, you know, think of a, a stadium. It's not just about CBRS and the radios. It's about what are they connected to. 53:14 And, and on, in an edge computing example, they're connected to a set of, of servers and compute power, you know, uh, literally at the stadium. So this- Mm-hmm... 53:23 you know, kind of local loop of content, um, is, is as much about the, the latency or the lack thereof, um, than it is about the bandwidth, right? Right. 53:32 That round trip time of, you know, on average today on an LTE network, it's something like 50 or 60 milliseconds, which sounds really fast, and it is. 53:41 But when you actually get down to 5G and then CBRS, I mean, you're talking about when you pair that with, with, um, uh, edge computing- Mm-hmm... I mean, you're talking about single-digit millisecond- Yeah... returns. 53:53 Right. Right? Which allows you to do things like, um, uh, I don't know, crowdsourced, uh, uh, gaming- Sure... right, or betting in a stadium. Yep. Right? 54:01 Uh, you know, where, where of course it, it, it's, it's legal at this point. 54:04 So I mean, those kind of things you, you start to get a really nice pairing of the bandwidth with the applications sitting at the edge of the network- Mm-hmm... and really allowing people to take advantage of that. Yeah. 54:15 Well, it's legal in New Jersey, not here yet. Ugh, it's driving me crazy. It is legal, it is legal in New Jersey. Not that I would know anything about that. Yeah, I know. It's But yes, it is. 54:23 [laughs] Nowhere and, you know, obviously, uh, Nevada and some other places. 54:27 But yeah, I wish it would [laughs] be legal here 'cause it'd be cool to be able to go to a game and be able to place bets, um, you know, as the game is happening. 54:33 And I think this type of technology and, you know, coupled with, with 5G and so forth, if, it, it needs to be able to be instant, not just to... 54:40 'Cause, 'cause the bets are timely, and if they're not made in the right time- Sure... they will cost people money. So, so, um- Absolutely... yeah, this has been fantastic. 54:49 I, um, I really appreciate your time kind of jumping on here and talking about CBRS. It's not something we've had- Yeah, my pleasure... talk. 54:54 We've, we've spoken a lot about edge computing, uh, many, many times, but CBRS is something that I think people really need to, uh, understand and pay attention to, um, as, and how, how it relates into the overall spectrum of connectivity and IoT and why it's important. 55:06 So, so thanks again for your time. 55:08 Um, and hopefully, you know, maybe sometime, uh, later this year we'll have you back on to, to talk a little bit more about the, the, the development of CBRS in the industry, applications that it's applicable to, and just kinda how it's evolving as a technology for IoT. 55:19 Yeah. No, absolutely. Hopefully, we have some, some really neat deployments, uh, that we can talk about publicly and- Yeah... and actually get into [laughs] the applications, which is really the fun stuff. Sounds great. 55:28 Well, thanks again. Thanks, Ryan. All right, everyone. Thanks again for listening to that episode of the IoT For All Podcast with our guest, Greg Dial, the executive vice president of JMA Wireless. 55:39 Um, again, wanna thank you all so much for all the continued support over the last year in helping us reach episode 50. Um, and, you know, if, if you are already a subscriber, we appreciate that. 55:49 If you're not a subscriber, please subscribe on whichever platform you're listening to us on, uh, and leave a rating or review if you haven't already done so. 55:55 It really helps us, um, reach more, more, more people, gets our content out there to a larger audience, um, and it lets us know that you're a fan, which is pretty cool. 56:03 So, uh, other than that, you know, we really hope you find value in this episode with Greg talking about CBRS. 56:08 If you have any questions, please, please feel free to reach out to us on social media or follow up in any, any way to, um, to ask any follow-up questions. 56:15 In addition to that, if you do have ideas on maybe potential guests you'd like to hear in 2020, um, somebody you'd like us to get on to kind of hear their perspective on the IoT space and what they're doing, please just, uh, drop us a line and let us know who that would be and we'll do everything we can to get them on the show. 56:28 Uh, but thanks again for listening and, uh, hope you enjoy our future episodes.
